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The company integrating it doesn't have to pay for the connector, for soldering it into the system, or for routing the signals form wherever they are on the main board to the connector.

He just solders the chip that would be inside the dongle on the motherboard, in a location that is convenient for him. A few generations in, he doesn't even have to do that soldering; the functionality will be integrated with something else on a single chip.

That makes the integrated TV set cheaper to produce. Guy A pays more. Margins are paper-thin for televisions, so that takes most of the market.

Eventually, guy A can't even buy that set. Which is pretty much like what Chromecast, and its clones, do. IntelMiner on Sept 2, It also played maybe half the file formats XBMC did, despite being newer and an order of magnitude more powerful Things have finally more or less come full circle again, these days I can run "Plex" on my NAS to just spew out media to everything, as long as it runs the Plex app anyway which covers my Xbox One and Phone, at least.

The only downside is having to pay for it, of course. Because there is absolutely nothing that confuses many people more than having more than one remote!

My mother still cannot figure out how to change the volume on my dad's home theater setup. It works remarkably well.

What devices do you have where HDMI cec works remarkably well? If configured to do it, turning on the blu ray player would consistent turn on the tv, but only sometimes set the right input.

That kind of thing. All and all Sony. You gotta stay in the same family. It's like the Apple ecosystem.

I mean, everyone I've asked just wants their Microwave to have two dials, Power and Time, yet no such thing exists on the market.

Instead it's a sea of bullshit Microwaves with bullshit "value add" features. I'd wager the same is true of TVs, and myriad other consumer products.

The end-users just want simple tech that works for years on end, while Product Managers and Designers want to boost their own status by sheparding these mindless "improvements" into production.

At work we have a microwave oven with a single dial for time haven't bothered to even check if it has power settings. It also doesn't rotate. It's branded as a "commercial microwave oven" or something.

People would flip their shit if their microwaves didn't rotate anymore, for example. But what "Value Add" features are you talking about that are non-trivial to implement?

It's not a microwave, but I've lost my fridge manual and have no idea how to set its clock anymore - so it's just there, blinking, for eternity.

Yes, I brought this fridge model because of "features". I even did a feature comparison while searching for a model. The caveat is that all the features I looked for were related to chilling things, or easy maintenance.

I would pay extra for getting rid of the clock - and more yet for just some different software that displayed temperature instead of time.

Have you considered using the internet to find a copy of the manual? Does customer demand drive "overscan on HDMI" by default, too? Who are those people?

This is pretty much the best argument I've heard on this issue. I always hear "people want this", but there are "features", like "overscan on HDMI" that nobody wants, and yet these features exist.

It's the manufacturers who are pushing shit down the throats of people. TrevorJ on Sept 2, I think it is more a matter of manufacturers wanting to sell TV's sooner than a year life cycle.

To do that, you have to come up with new features to try to entice. LeifCarrotson on Sept 2, But if the average consumer compares the Sony and LG 'smart' TVs with YouTube and Netflix and 47 other apps to a by extension 'dumb' Samsung display, they won't pick the Samsung, even if it has better panel quality that can't be readily quantified or seen on the hypersaturated demo.

Well, you and I might buy the Samsung, but most consumers aren't as informed or as savvy with a Chromecast. If I'm buying a TV for my mom neither would I.

They're also much more expensive, have fewer input options than my current dumb tv, and have some remote configuration options that would more conveniently be put into menus, in a consumer device.

It's not like there's a way to even go see what I'm buying before I do it. I'm not a big fan of smart devices, but I'm not going to pay more for a display with "meh" connectivity that doesn't really seem to be optimized as a home entertainment device.

Although annoying, it makes more sense to buy the smart TV and ignore the extra features. What possible evidence do you have of this?

It sounds wholly speculative. My wishlist for a 'TV': High quality LCD panel 2. Make it as 'always on' as my Macbook or Apple Cinema Display — hit a button or activate a display and the screen comes on instantly.

For the premium model, add: Ambient light detection to adjust brightness 2. Embedded RPi-like or actually RPi on a fifth 'overlay' input i.

Make it open source, let people hack it and do fun stuff with it, build widgets, whatever. Don't sell me on 'Your TV can do Netflix now!

My iPad from can play Netflix, and it can do it better than most smart TVs can. The only thing I own that uses 2. The "concept" is planned obsolescence: I totally agree, they have no plans to maintain 5 year old TV apps I love my 4 year old Sony tv.

Sure, none of the pre-built apps work anymore I agree with this. There was a time where smart TVs were useful but it is dying out. They should all just be monitors now.

Why don't they do that but instead a Chromecast like device without blocking out 3rd parties? I don't disagree, but I've gone the opposite way.

Just last week I replaced a 46" Samsung p set from 9 years ago with a brand-new top-of-the-line Sony 4k set that has all this fancy AndroidTV stuff I neither knew I wanted nor really understood.

I'm not quite clear on this point.. And I'd argue that the SmartTV stuff is not really a reason many people buy a TV; regardless, having it does not remove your ability to use external devices in the future.

It's a frustrating situation, but, IMO, the Smart TV stuff only adds value unless you're talking about the microphone in my remote and the possibility of said devices being used to backdoor my network, of course.

I forgot to add, new things pop up all the time that you don't know you want until they arrive. I noticed Google Photos being advertised on TV.

I gave it a go on my iPhone and notice a Google Cast button. I don't have any of Google's streaming devices yet, nor do I have an HDMI port free on my receiver to support another device.

Well, I hit the button, and what do you know, it automagically knew all about my TV and displayed my pictures at the touch of a button. Sometimes having fancy new stuff is cool, and you get added features you never expected.

I sure wouldn't buy a Google streaming device just for this one novelty, but I'm not going to complain about having it. I believe the TV's may have a sort of "inbuilt chromecast": I found this a LOT more convenient than having to deal with chromecast per-se; since I can't really control the TV much with the remote control once chromecast is in play.

Support varies by the "app". I mostly just want pause though, so it works for me. Well, because streaming as a service to a customer is largely about the contents and about customer support.

This is area that Internet providers are controlling exclusively over here anyway. Every triple play offer has a TV part which comes with a set-top box, and a random streaming device simply cannot compete with "state-supported" traffic CDNs in close proximity, multicast channels.

Why do the ISPs provide their own set-top box device? A streaming stick would require lots of customization per every ISP in order to address these points.

The vast majority of TV viewers do not use and do not even understand how to use these devices. The TV makers can't take out features because people would not buy that TV, people want features, and these features are what the guy at the store can sell TV's by.

Streaming devices also need to be constantly updated, many of them need to be updated more often than the TV their SoC's get obsolete just as fast if not faster and YouTube can make changes tomorrow that would make the current version of Chromecast incompatible as well.

But I can use it because I'm an "advanced" user I run my own streaming and transcoding server and have a media center PC.

But for some one who wants a no hassle turn on TV and get netflix this isn't really an option, even Chromecast isn't very ideal quality isn't that great and it can lag pretty badly on congested networks.

The more expensive streamers give you quality that matches the TV native app but they also tend to cost considerably more than the cheap sticks, unless you buy the Android unbranded chinese SoC sticks.

DougWebb on Sept 2, I think a key competitive feature would be to have their own device integrated better than third-party devices.

A usb connection to share commands from the tv's remote, for example. Maybe integrated menus of some sort. If the add-on device is fairly cheap, and major upgrades require replacement rather than just software, the tv manufacturers could get more upgrade sales than they can get for whole tv upgrades.

You can buy any add-on yourself they work with every TV you don't have to worry about brand compatibility or lockouts why ask the TV makers to make the market worse?

The minute that Sony or whoever starts selling dongles is the minute they block all other dongles from working on their TV's and everyone would do the same.

I have several streamers at home that all work with it without any issues. Every TV is a dumb panel, removing the "smart" features from it won't make it any cheaper those SoC's are cheap as dirt, you gain nothing by removing it and you lose the simple crowd that doesn't want to add other devices and worry about setting them up or figuring how they work, they want to turn on the TV and click on netflix and that's it.

I remember a certain TV manufacturer [1] making a system with a separate tuner and monitor, they were able to sell it as a high end product.

Selling a high end "gimmick" by forcing people to pay for features that are needed for the TV to work like speakers because you can sell a few rich yuppies the idea of a minimalist design is a nice anecdote but nothing more: How many people can afford to spend that much every couple of years on a new tv?

I'd bet most tvs in most us homes are years old. My tv, which happens to be a bravia, is 13 years old and still works perfectly.

I use an old Tivo with a lifetime service plan and a roku 3rd gen I think, upgraded once for the smarts. They may make more profit from the latter if the margin is higher and upgrades more frequent.

No matter how you spin it, shipping and handling large TVs is costly. And the margins on TVs are as slim as modern TVs, I think the likes of Sony could get the same amount of margin on a small 'smart' box packing something like a PS3 equivalent in a tiny box mounted behind the TV.

There shouldn't be any lifetime mismatch by now. A first release Raspberry PI is powerful enough to fill a full HD TV nowadays, and while it takes a more powerful computer for a 4K TV, this is not something that changes with time while you are not looking.

The only "lifetime mismatch" that still exist on smart TVs is manufacturer DRM that is fulfilling its design goal of not letting you use your device.

The on by default "features" gather valuable marketing data that companies can then sell to the highest bidder. That's why all TVs these days are smart, even the super cheap ones.

The best thing you can do with a Smart TV is never connect it to the internet. Pengwin on Sept 2, This is how all of Vizio's new TVs work. There's no interface for the television.

It just has Chromecast built in. Downside of the M-Series at least is they don't come with a tuner installed. It is really hard to get a top end dumb TV the same way it is hard to get a top end dumb phone.

I would be first in line I'm really curious how big of a market this would be. There are many niche 'simple high end phone' products, the majority of which fail, despite forums full of people claiming 'take my money', 'I'd be first in line' etc.

The reality is that these products are as expensive or more as regular products because small batches , and everybody wants a different 20 pct of the full functionality.

SloopJon on Sept 2, My recollection is that TV manufacturers didn't even want to include digital tuners until the FCC required them to.

Of course, that tuner isn't doing me any good now that the FCC allows Comcast to encrypt broadcast channels. Unless of course you want to watch local television, in which case you would need a digital tuner.

That is why the FCC requires the tuner. There were subsidized coupons for tuner boxes when the switch was made, so that everyone and their grandparents could continue watching television.

Unfortunately, YouTube doesn't have the same kind of support. And are TVs and monitors really different these days other than inclusion of the tuner?

Some will do it, but are expensive. Large good monitors are very expensive, much more expensive than TVs. My personal opinion is that if you need a TV, or a display to watch movies on, buy an p plasma not LCD that nobody wants anymore.

There are models search the Internet which have almost reference-grade color reproduction, something you will not find in any LCD that is cheaper than your car, and contrast is much better than LCD too.

You get internal speakers and much more io: Next up on terrible ideas: I had the same problem with my Samsung Smart TV. It had an app for Amazon's Prime Video.

Amazon eventually abandoned it and sent me part-credit for a Fire TV stick. I also have a Chromecast and am generally positive about it, however it's very laggy to controller i.

For example, here's a feature I see as pretty basic for a "smart" display: All the Chromecast-enabled slideshow apps I've tried for this have been laggy and disappointing, unfortunately.

The companies only add the software as a way to make more money. If a smart tv costs more and offers free Youtube videos, then people see it as a added value.

But technology changes so fast that sometimes the smart tv sets can't keep up. My wife got a smart tv from her employer out of a catalog for being a loyal employee for a long time.

It has Roku built in. One day that will be obsolete. SeeDave on Sept 3, They all have so much in common: It seems like a complete and total waste of developer time to reinvent the wheel for what is essentially the same thing on different devices.

The TV itself is a durable product my TV is 8 years old. This is what I like about the modular approach of "pluggable" smarts.

Upgrade the smarts by upgrading the cheaper smart module in this case Chromecast or Fire or Apple TV. Can you explain why it makes more sense?

To me, best smart tv is tv with best, long lasting picture quality. Why doesn't a monitor fill your needs?

Show me those cheap 55" 4k monitors that you speak of. I know Vizio TV that are cheap, but to my knowledge no 'monitors' exist in that size or price range.

You are right, good monitors are more expensive than TVs. Especially monitors that can do But why do you need a 4k monitor, to use as a TV , since all current material is p?

Better buy 4k when there is a need for 4k, then the price will be lower. I kind of miss the old, heavy, dumb-as-rocks TV I grew up with.

It turned on instantly. Switching channels was instantaneous - none of this five second Comcast delay - although you did have to get up and punch the physical buttons on the cable tuner[1].

I don't think it even had coaxial input; I remember there were two leads[2] that were held on with a couple screws, so if the picture got snowy, you'd jiggle the wires around to get a better connection.

I really don't understand how TVs are so bad. You can spend thousands of pounds on one and the interface will be incredibly slow, buggy and take ages to change channels.

What is so difficult about putting this capability inside a television? To be fair in the current situation, it's not worth buying a TV for it's smart capabilities because they'll rapidly fall out of date.

It makes more sense to buy something like the Nvidia Shield which can be swapped out without replacing the panel should it be needed.

Even a cheap external digital tuner has a more features and a more usable interface than dumb TVs with builtin tuner.

This is a market I've daydreamed about trying to enter. Build a high quality, dumb-as-shit TV and couple it with a small line of high quality receivers with beefy ARM processors and well written software.

How hard can this possibly be? For how many languages do you plan to localize? How many date-formats for the built-in clock? What about a virtual keyboards and input methods?

Will you support multi-tasking? You will want to make it usable from some kind of remote. Do you have QA to test all of that and are they knowledgeable about all the internationalization issues?

You will need a specialist on tuning and decoding of ATSC, DVB, hdmi inputs, upsampling motion interpolation to hz, hz and above. Well, the receiver would also be pretty dumb.

You'd hook a Chromecast PS4, Xbox, etc. It did take a few seconds to warm up, but you'd get the nice crackly static charge on the screen, warm glow of the tube heater, and barely audible coil whine.

My mother in law has a classic floor console tube wood cabinet hooked to google fiber. Before it, I actually was on the same side of being annoyed by SmartTVs, but this one is actually a pretty smooth experience.

I tossed out my Fire stick. I think TV manufacturers are, necessarily, going to keep working on the kinks. I don't think SmartTVs are an inherently bad idea, they just needed polish.

If your SmartTV manufacturer wants to stop supporting an 'app', or can't handle the new specs for said app, you need to buy a new TV to keep your expected functionality.

Richard stallman started the GNU project because he was not allowed to modify closed source printer drivers. It would be better for the environment if consumer devices had open source so end users can fix software issues.

Reason being end users care about their devices longer than device manufacturers do. In the meantime a Chromecast dongle will fix the TVs.

Yeah I can imagine it being exactly like every linux machine I've ever used stable but vulnerable or needing some techno-fu to persuade it to boot back up again after I ran apt-get upgrade and it didn't quite do what it meant to for my hardware.

True thanks, a htpc would be more long lived. The "Smart TV" is like those "all-in-one desktop PCs" -- unless you really prioritize the appearance of the thing, like in an architect's office where clients are visiting, etc.

The display stays good for a decade and the compute is often obsolete in 12 months -- it makes no sense to bundle them. I have a overheating iMac whose compute I wish I could switch out.

The difference is, you sacrifice almost nothing save a few dollars to have the Smart TV gubbins inside. Also, I call BS on being obsolete in 12 months.

Then I realized computers last longer and longer these days, and are approaching display level lifespan. She's still using that iMac today, and it works great.

The reality is, by the time the computer was too old to be particularly useful, a p 24" display was old hat as well. I don't disagree it makes the disposable culture a bit worse; I'm not particularly likely to try to repair the iMac after a couple of years which is one reason I sprung for an extended warranty on it which I typically avoid like the plague , but it's not so bad as you suggest.

And, of course, the machine can still be used as an external display or output to another display if it's the display that fails instead of the computer.

Perhaps your strongest argument should be that Smart TVs may accelerate the decline of standalone streamers. If that comes to pass, TVs may come to look a bit more like the all-in-one computer world.

But for now I'll enjoy my 4k streaming on my Smart TV apps, and replace those functions with standalone devices that do it better, as they come on the market.

They're not there yet, though, and I'm not about to throw out all of my other devices and replace them just because I bought a new TV.

Every Smart TV I've seen has horrible ergonomics. It takes a while to boot, the remote has lag, it takes a long time to change from one input to another, it takes a huge amount of time to start the app that is responsible for changing inputs.

Yeah, they have inputs and everything, but android-based UI is hands down the worst UI I have ever had to use, and this included typing magic commands into the mainframe of airline global distribution systems.

Not possible with Smart TVs. I never thought of my TV in terms of ergonomics. I've got a Sony xd, for what it's worth.

You don't just sacrifice a few dollars to have a Smart TV inside It has security vulnerabilities, features stop working, etc Especially with the "stick" format of Roku etc.

If the features stop working, the only thing you have lost compared to the TV which never had those features is If you are worried about security issues don't connect to a network, you will be just sacrificing a few dollars.

There is one thing that is painfully missing on any smart TV I've seen: This must be a regional thing, in the UK possibly the rest of Europe they do.

I normally connect my laptop like this. I haven't owned a laptop with a VGA output since about , so it's not relevant to me.

I don't think it's a smart TV drawback, it's just a "newfangled stuff doesn't support old stuff" problem. VGA has limited bandwidth, so it looks horrible at the scale of a modern TV screen.

I was using VGA to drive a x monitor at work for months. The image was more than sufficient to write code on. You get more artifacting from the video codec than VGA output.

Maybe if you're trying to push 4K through it, but it's plenty good enough up to x There are so many consumers out there who buy new TVs, laptops, phones, and sometimes even cars every few years; just read the comments on any tech news site to find them.

I agree that it's silly to bundle the two, but these types of consumers won't care that their TV's YouTube app stopped working in because they already bought a new TV years ago.

People always say this about the iMac but the fact is that the iMac is cheaper than the competing displays. You literally get the computer inside for free.

If you don't like the computer inside you can ignore it and use the iMac as a display. Anyway these days a computer should last you five years easily.

I still use my iMac, but I can't ignore the massive fan noise that the computer creates if I use it as a target display. I get that the computer inside is "free" but I'd gladly pay extra to have the components separated.

YouTube still streams H. So as others comment here, it looks like an excuse. Likely software to support ads that they didn't want to write code for.

If you're reading HN, you're probably not in the target market for youtube apps embedded in smart tvs. But these customers do exist.

I imagine the main selling point is they don't have to connect or configure any external set top box or media pc, and they don't have to install or maintain the app.

If you don't have the skills or the time to do so, this may be appealing. The polar opposite would be a Linux expert running their own media center - absolute control but at the cost of said time and skills.

It's only harmful when it doesn't work as intended, of when my 'smart' TV is so obsolete that it's no longer functional as a 'dumb' TV.

The problem is every TV manufacturer suddenly pulled a Windows 10 and thought to themselves: Otherwise we'll never beat Google and Apple!

And I thought the Smart bit would be a nice plus. But it's quite annoying. Takes a loong time to turn on and the UI is glacial and inconsistent.

I use Netflix through the Xbox, and use Chromecast for other things. My grandparents can grab the regular old tv remote like they've been doing for 25 years and browse netflix on the tv like regular channels.

Convincing them to use a smartphone, search on the tiny screen, play, and then cast to their tv is impossible. I don't blame 'em. I use Xbox One as a media center, works very well.

Don't get me started on how horrendously complicated my Harmony remote was to setup. Plus, once in awhile it goes haywire, which makes my wife's ability to use the system 10x as difficult as it would be without the universal remote in play.

Because I set the system up, I understand its quirks. But when it works Whereas, in the old days, we'd both be using 7 remotes to accomplish any task, and be more or less equally proficient at it.

My mum bought a Sony bluray player that, at the time, was great. It had support for Lovefilm now Amazon , Spotify, Netflix and all sorts.

It was quite expensive, but we thought it was worth it for the extras and it was highly rated as a standalone bluray player.

She even paid for the overpriced USB wifi dongle. Now it's just a bluray player. There's no support for any of the apps because they all changed their protocols or whatever happens.

Thankfully it's still useful and it's not the TV that's defunct. It damages consumer relations a lot because now she's very cynical about buying any kind of 'smart' device.

Good for her to be savvy, but bad for Sony. The people in the target market are getting screwed. I bought her a Roku stick for Christmas and she couldn't be happier.

When it works, it actually works surprisingly well. And in general, the interface is not as snappy as it should be. I sometimes have to completely pull the plug to restart it.

That being said, it is definitely convenient to have all these apps accessible from a main screen. The alternative would likely be switching to a different input and having to grab another remote oh, the horror!

But I am worried about how long it will be until my "smart" tv is obsolete because all the apps are no longer compatible with their services, but I'm hoping that because it's Android-based, it will be more likely to receive regular updates.

Those people have tablets and smartphones that can use very well. Why should watching youtube on a tv be better than on a tablet? I believe it's not.

It takes more time to operate and you can't walk around the house. Furthermore everybody must watch the same video, which is seldom welcome even with standard tv programs.

Yet another reason why the internet of things will be truly appalling. It seems like a dream come true when you're in the business of people buying new iterations of the same thing, Which seems to be all SoCs and embedded systems providers these days.

The best thing you can do for your TV is not connect it to the Internet. Get a Roku box or similar for all your streaming needs.

Youtube updated their TOS [1][2] and posted additional documents that developers need to adhere to [3][4]. These take effect February 10, , but were posted in advance on August 11, As far as failure modes go, so far so good -- the 'smart' TV will still work, it'll just have one less app.

Eventually, as more and more apps raise their minimum requirements either by necessity or just because , the older hardware will no longer cut it; but the TV will keep working as a display.

The problem will come when the smart TV's OS itself is no longer getting patches. We apologize for the fact that you can still get up there".

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A Tu sort deux bandeaux de chantier, et tu les met devant, et tu coupe l'escalator. Oh putain, toi tu peux retourner en CP. Et si ces deux gros tas avaient la flemme de descendre en bas bloquer le passage, elles pouvaient juste appuyer sur le bouton stop de l'escalator parce en Chine ou ailleurs il y a un bouton stop sur tout les escalators.

Tu as tout dit, elles sont pas responsable. Ok tg t'es un putain de troll ou alors lis jusqu'au bout fdp. Y a des choses qui sont vrai mais dans tout les cas si on leur dit de pas monter tu monte pas point barre.

On ne le saura pas.

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